a small "factoid" about the MK23

larryccf

larryccf

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you guys may not recall, but i imported the non-USA version of the MK23 from 1996-to approx 2002. I say "non-USA version" vs euro version because HK Obendorf ships the same version to the international market outside europe, ie Australia, Pacific Rim etc. The non-USA version has a slightly tighter chamber (about .002") for a little bit better accuracy and comes in the metal alum case with a test target from when function tested. The USA version, due to SAAMI agreement (SAAMI is the sporting arms & ammunitions manufacturers institute) with all firearms & ammo mfgrs, the chambers have to be standardized for wider ammo tolerance. Back up thru approx mid-1970s, you might buy one brand 1911 (or whatever pistol) and it would run great on Federal ammo but horrible on Remington or Winchester. Change pistols and you were on the hunt for the ammo diet it preferred. SAAMI was formed and chamber tolerances were standardized to help eliminate that issue. I assume it's still the case of non-SAAMI or non-USA HKs with the current gen of HK pistols.

Now to the MK23 factoid.-- i had sold one non-USA MK23 to a hard core shooter customer, he had shot his so much he'd worn all the finish off the safety. Anyway, he called up one day, and you could tell his heart was down in his stomach, just his tone of voice told you he was depressed. He was calling because he had damaged his frame. He said he was at the range with the MK23, and when he was finished shooting, as he was packing his stuff up, he noticed a 45 cal round on the ground. He knew it wasn't one of his, but still he picked it up and figured he'd put it down the pipe. He said when he pulled the trigger, the MK23 jumped up over his head, and it had sounded like someone had fired a AR-15 with the muzzle right next to his ear.. It took him a couple of seconds to re-orient himself and said he felt something was pinching the skin on the palm of his right hand. The magazine was on the ground, all apart - floor plate was off, follower was out as well as the mag spring. The pinching on his palm was from the grip - it had split vertically down the rear of the grip, and had apparently pinched some skin when it returned to it's normal position. Also a triangular pc of plastic about 3/4"x3/4"x3/4" had broken ouf of the frame near the safety along the top edge of the frame..

Reason for the call, he was hoping HK Oberndorf could replace the frame with the same serial number. I had him send me the frame so i could photograph it and email them to the engineer i dealt with over at Obendorf. I emailed the images on a Sunday, and called over there on Monday morning. When i got thru to him and he heard my voice, he stated "Yes I see those pictures - that must be over-pressure round!". I asked him what told him that - his response was, "That is where we design it to fail, and to force all the pressure to go down and not hurt the user". Son of a BMT, they had thought ahead, thinking about the idiots out there. I ended melting the front slide rail block out of the frame and sending just that to Obendorf, and they did re-use it.

The above is what clued me in as to why both HK and SIG in europe have never respected the Glock design. Yeah, Gaston had better business acumen, but i could fill a book of safety issues with the Glock design, most of which are frame flex related. Something else a lot of you probably didn't think about when the USP series first came out, i know i didn't, but HK made a big deal in their advertisements in 1994 about their polymer being fiberglass strand re-enforced. Then SIG did the same in their ads in 1996 with the SIG PRO, their first polymer framed pistol.

Fiberglass strand to polymer is like rebar to concrete, it makes it more rigid and stronger, but is also a more expensive polymer to source. When Glock designed the glock pistols, he had a firearms design execute the design, but gaston was the lead engineer which meant he had final say on material selection (as well as design). In the polymer industry, which was gaston glock's background, your profit is defined by how many pennies you can shave off the cost of the 50 gallon drums of material. (Polymer is delivered as small pellet like rabbit pellets, in 50 gallon drums. Gaston had sourced the cheapest polymer he could, that up to maybe 94% of the service demand of the pistol.

When HK and SIG designed their pistols, firearms engineers were the lead engineer, with final say on materials and design, and a polymer engineer was a consultant. Especially the Gen 1 glock, and true through the Gen 3 glock (i cannot speak to the later gen glocks) - take the pistol, cleared of all ammo, leave the mag out and insert your trigger finger up inside the magwell and push out thru one of the grip panels - if you pull your finger down while trying to push out, you'll feel your finger moving thru the polymer grip panel, kind of like a canoe "oil canning" over rocks in white water river. You don't feel that in either any HK or SIG polymer pistols. Glocks have been known to discharge in the holster when an officer jumps in his cruiser and the holster is under his leg, or when an officer chasing a perk, tackles him to the ground and again, lands on his holster. So much for going with the less expensive polymer.

There are other aspects of the difference in the frames where the frame flex compounds the safety issue but this post is going too long - it will have to be for another day
anyway, FWIW
 
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@larryccf So are you aware of whether or not the Euro MK23 imports sold through Arms Unlimited still have a tighter chamber tolerance?
 
I would assume they do, again, the only reason Hk's USA Mk23s had or have a looser chamber is to satisfy SAAMI specs
but the key word there is "assume'. I left the HK world in 2003 - up until then i was the only importer bringing euro HK product in

suspect others have stopped for a number of reasons, with the main one being, HK USA owns the HK trademark here in the US. Whenever a product crosses the US border it should have the permission of the US trademark owner - otherwise HK could put an alert out to US Customs and instruct them to put a hold on any product coming across the border with their trademark.
And it's fairly easy as all customs clearances (paperworkd) is filed in advance by customs brokers working for the importer, and they're filed by computer with US Customs, so an alert is easy to institute and to spot a shipment of HK product coming across in advance, and US Customs will seize that shipment and give it to HK. You'd better believe my gonads were the size of raisins when i had shipments in transit.

Don't how many recall there was an episode of 60 minutes where US customs agents were raiding shops in downtown Los Angeles and seizing counterfeit Calvin Klein clothing, Nike sneakers etc. They weren't seizing them on the basis that they were counterfeit, but the fact that they had come across the border without the registered trademark owner's permission.
 
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larryccf said:
you guys may not recall, but i imported the non-USA version of the MK23 from 1996-to approx 2002. I say "non-USA version" vs euro version because HK Obendorf ships the same version to the international market outside europe, ie Australia, Pacific Rim etc. The non-USA version has a slightly tighter chamber (about .002") for a little bit better accuracy and comes in the metal alum case with a test target from when function tested. The USA version, due to SAAMI agreement (SAAMI is the sporting arms & ammunitions manufacturers institute) with all firearms & ammo mfgrs, the chambers have to be standardized for wider ammo tolerance. Back up thru approx mid-1970s, you might buy one brand 1911 (or whatever pistol) and it would run great on Federal ammo but horrible on Remington or Winchester. Change pistols and you were on the hunt for the ammo diet it preferred. SAAMI was formed and chamber tolerances were standardized to help eliminate that issue. I assume it's still the case of non-SAAMI or non-USA HKs with the current gen of HK pistols.

Now to the MK23 factoid.-- i had sold one non-USA MK23 to a hard core shooter customer, he had shot his so much he'd worn all the finish off the safety. Anyway, he called up one day, and you could tell his heart was down in his stomach, just his tone of voice told you he was depressed. He was calling because he had damaged his frame. He said he was at the range with the MK23, and when he was finished shooting, as he was packing his stuff up, he noticed a 45 cal round on the ground. He knew it wasn't one of his, but still he picked it up and figured he'd put it down the pipe. He said when he pulled the trigger, the MK23 jumped up over his head, and it had sounded like someone had fired a AR-15 with the muzzle right next to his ear.. It took him a couple of seconds to re-orient himself and said he felt something was pinching the skin on the palm of his right hand. The magazine was on the ground, all apart - floor plate was off, follower was out as well as the mag spring. The pinching on his palm was from the grip - it had split vertically down the rear of the grip, and had apparently pinched some skin when it returned to it's normal position. Also a triangular pc of plastic about 3/4"x3/4"x3/4" had broken ouf of the frame near the safety along the top edge of the frame..

Reason for the call, he was hoping HK Oberndorf could replace the frame with the same serial number. I had him send me the frame so i could photograph it and email them to the engineer i dealt with over at Obendorf. I emailed the images on a Sunday, and called over there on Monday morning. When i got thru to him and he heard my voice, he stated "Yes I see those pictures - that must be over-pressure round!". I asked him what told him that - his response was, "That is where we design it to fail, and to force all the pressure to go down and not hurt the user". Son of a BMT, they had thought ahead, thinking about the idiots out there. I ended melting the front slide rail block out of the frame and sending just that to Obendorf, and they did re-use it.

The above is what clued me in as to why both HK and SIG in europe have never respected the Glock design. Yeah, Gaston had better business acumen, but i could fill a book of safety issues with the Glock design, most of which are frame flex related. Something else a lot of you probably didn't think about when the USP series first came out, i know i didn't, but HK made a big deal in their advertisements in 1994 about their polymer being fiberglass strand re-enforced. Then SIG did the same in their ads in 1996 with the SIG PRO, their first polymer framed pistol.

Fiberglass strand to polymer is like rebar to concrete, it makes it more rigid and stronger, but is also a more expensive polymer to source. When Glock designed the glock pistols, he had a firearms design execute the design, but gaston was the lead engineer which meant he had final say on material selection (as well as design). In the polymer industry, which was gaston glock's background, your profit is defined by how many pennies you can shave off the cost of the 50 gallon drums of material. (Polymer is delivered as small pellet like rabbit pellets, in 50 gallon drums. Gaston had sourced the cheapest polymer he could, that up to maybe 94% of the service demand of the pistol.

When HK and SIG designed their pistols, firearms engineers were the lead engineer, with final say on materials and design, and a polymer engineer was a consultant. Especially the Gen 1 glock, and true through the Gen 3 glock (i cannot speak to the later gen glocks) - take the pistol, cleared of all ammo, leave the mag out and insert your trigger finger up inside the magwell and push out thru one of the grip panels - if you pull your finger down while trying to push out, you'll feel your finger moving thru the polymer grip panel, kind of like a canoe "oil canning" over rocks in white water river. You don't feel that in either any HK or SIG polymer pistols. Glocks have been known to discharge in the holster when an officer jumps in his cruiser and the holster is under his leg, or when an officer chasing a perk, tackles him to the ground and again, lands on his holster. So much for going with the less expensive polymer.

There are other aspects of the difference in the frames where the frame flex compounds the safety issue but this post is going too long - it will have to be for another day
anyway, FWIW
Click to expand...

Interesting. :unsure:

Tony
 
AGG said:
Interesting. :unsure:

Tony
Click to expand...
You're right it is interesting that HK-USA still allows Arms Unlimited to bring in and sell the MR223, MK23, SP5, SFP9 et al. without some pushback. I have to believe that there is a heavy hitting connection with AU that goes right to the top in Oberndorf. Maybe those rights to the HK name here in the US aren't that exclusive after all.
 
ENDER said:
You're right it is interesting that HK-USA still allows Arms Unlimited to bring in and sell the MR223, MK23, SP5, SFP9 et al. without some pushback. I have to believe that there is a heavy hitting connection with AU that goes right to the top in Oberndorf. Maybe those rights to the HK name here in the US aren't that exclusive after all.
Click to expand...

I think that it is a shame--- HK-USA should be the sole importer. :rolleyes:

Tony
 
ENDER said:
You're right it is interesting that HK-USA still allows Arms Unlimited to bring in and sell the MR223, MK23, SP5, SFP9 et al. without some pushback. I have to believe that there is a heavy hitting connection with AU that goes right to the top in Oberndorf. Maybe those rights to the HK name here in the US aren't that exclusive after all.
Click to expand...
Don't know if HK USA is allowing them to import, it may just be they are not aware of their ability to have US Customs seize their shipments.
]
When i was importing, i kept changing overseas HK distributors - Australia was the last importer, i brought in about 1200+ pistols. HK Obendorf knew where their pistols were going but were happy to be shipping product as they were financially hurting, they viewed the US as their last primary market. This was about 2000, and remember, even UK had banned a lot of firearms and restricted ownership after that nutcase went into a school in Scotland (i think it was Dundee) and shot a number of kids. Problem was HK USA didn't want to sell, not just not to the civilian market, didn't want to sell or handle any small orders. One example, michigan state police chief armourer (they'd gone with the P7M8 for their troopers) must have called me 3 times asking if i could get them parts - i asked why don't you contact HK USA, his response was "I have, my rep hasn't returned my calls for the past 9 months, he knows why I'm calling."

About 2002 someone from Hk Oberndorf called me, he was basically a german version of a Price Waterhouse consultant, brought in to help them re-organize and increase sales. His first question was why wasn't i a dealer at HK USA? My response was, I had tried to when i approached them about buying all the P7K3s i'd been informed Obendorf had in inventory and offered to me thru their mideast rep for (tighten your seatbelts) $309 each. I figured if I brought in, between customs duty, shipping, customs broker costs and the big one FET costs (it was either 10% or 11% of the first transaction value for pistols), I figured i'd be into them $450 to $500 per. As HK's condition for a dealership was a minimum of a $2500 initial order, i figured an order for $100,000+ worth of pistols, that they'd be happy. Nope - i spoke to a Tye Weaver, who at the time was their Commercial Markets director. He was also former sergeant in a PA sheriff's office (iirc). Problem at HK USA was that most of their USA staff were not full time, most kept their jobs at whatever LE dept they were with. I spoke to Tye for maybe 20 mintes , explained to him the mideast rep had indicated Obendorf had 330 P7K3s they wanted to sell, and i'd take them all if we could agree on a "take them all price", and that i didn't want credit, i'd give them a 25% deposit on the order and the balance when they had them in courtry ready to deliver. His respons was., in a loud angry tone, "32 cal? - never sell !" . I simply responded, Tye that's what capitalism is all about, if they don't sell i've bought myself an expensive boat anchor. He said he'd get back to me. 3 months went by, i called back in and he wasn't in (probably back at his sheriff's dept), so i asked for Jim Schatz (i may not have spelled that correct), as he'd met me over at Abu Dhabi and seen my booth over there at IDEX '99, so i figured he might realize i was a serious player. Jim was military & LE sales director - when i explained to Jim what i had asked Tye Weaver for and hadn't heard back, i told him i didn't care who got the commission, i just wanted product. He told he didn't think Tye thought they'd sell. I responded Jim, what in the world - if you've got 300 green shirts on the shelf needing a customer, do you tell your customers to buy blue shirts?? And he said he'd get back to me,

He never did - I got worried someone else would get wind of them and buy them, so i contacted the mid east rep direct and thinking HK USA might know something i didn't, ie that they wouldn't sell, i asked him if i agreed to take them all, could he hold half for 5-6 months and give me half now? He agreed. They came in and sold out in 44 days from the time they cleared US customs. Only reason i know that, is when the last one shipped i looked at the date of the customs paperwork. Those sold for $895. The 2nd half i bumped the price up to $1095 and they took 4+ months to sell but they sold out.

Again that german "price waterhouse" consultant asked if i would try again - I responded "it's not a case of when HK is going to screw you over, but when". And they'd already screwed me one time with a local sheriff's office. They had called in wanting 12 MP5s - a buddy of mine was an authorized LE dealer, so i ordered thru him. They do not give a dealer a 6-8% margin on LE sales (my buddy had shown me his cost sheet. And they publish a law enforcement retail price sheet, so LE knows what they should be paying. i accepted the order from the sheriff's office only because i had made a previous sale to them that had been profitable, they had been good enough to remember me for this order, and even though there wasn't any profit worth the effort, i'd still service it so they'd remember me on the next order.

Well HK will not ship full auto direct to a dealer, only direct to the LE dept, which is fine by me, it saves me paperwork. They'd told my buddy, the authorized dealer 3-4 months for deliver. I told the sheriff's office 5-6 months, just to give myself a margin. At the 6 month mark the sheriff's office called "where are our rifles?" i called my bud, he call HK and they said there'd been a problem with the forms at ATF and that it would be another 3-4 months. I told the sheriff's office another 5-6 months, and again they called me after another 6 months asking the same question, ie where were the rifles.

They finally got them at the 15 month mark. I never heard from that sheriff's office again. Put yourself in my shoes and in their shoes, they had to assume the problem was with me - who'd think a mfgr would have product and didn't want to ship it. So basically HK put egg on my face that i couldn't wipe off and lost a customer.

I could relay a dozen stories like the above - I had told germany (as they'd asked) what the issue was, and i told them, 70 to 80% of the company is either current or former law enforcement - not the best background for sales, keep in mind, they had started their first employment with a "company" ie a LE dept, that couldn't go bankrupt. Making it worse, they weren't on commission. When they get their position at HK USA, thru the good old boy's network, 40% of their energy is devoted establishing and defending their position on the authority totem pole, then another 25-30% on not making mistakes to keep from suffer career damage - how do you avoid making mistakes? BY TAKIING AS LITTLE ACTION AS YOU CAN!

Obendorf had me write a report on all the incidents (with full contact info) on all the problems HK USA had had, ie how they'd offended the US Marines, and the Secret Service and other incidents. When i'd heard the SS had ordered 450 of the FN P90 (the little squirt subgun) i called one of the armorers at the SS that i knew and asked him if it was true - his response was yep. I asked him "but you've got the MP5k in inventory, that has to fit the bill"?? His answer, "we do and it does, but we have issue with the company". Keep in mind, HK USA, at the time in Sterling, was approx 35 miles from the SS headquarters. There should have been a HK rep over there once a month giving out pens, key FOBs, whatever and seeing what they needed.

Remember, law enforcement is as fad driven as the commercial market. When the SS had seen the British SAS rappelling down ropes onto the deck of the Achille Lauro carrying MP5s and then later onto the roof of the Iranian embassy in London when the terrorists took it hostage, they gave the MP5 a second look. When they adopted the MP5s, well the FBI then took a look at the MP5. Now the SS is carrying FNP90s - think what other agencies around the world are going to do when they see the SS carrying P90s.

FWIW
 
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if you knew all that HK USA has done to dealers, major customers like the USMC, SS etc, - i'd be typing a book
 
@larryccf Thanks for taking the time to type all that up. I normally don't read long posts, but this one kept me reading. Keep it up (y)

All I can say about HK-USA support is this: It's a good thing HK makes a quality product with ostensibly very good quality control. All those Georgia boys have to deal with is parts availability and the occasional VP9 newbie.
 
well, as per my response to AGG, it may be they've changed, but back when i was still involved with HK products, my feelings i loved the product but wouldn't give 2 cents for the company. Surprising part is or was, HK Obendorf were great to deal with - they wanted me to come onboard as their commercial US agent, but had me make one more attempt at being an authorized dealer here. If i wasn't successful, they would then be able to deal with me directly. What i hadn't allowed for, i assumed they were superior in authority over HK USA but BAE had purchased HK Worldwide in 1991 and Obendorf went from a Mother/daughter relelationship with USA to a sister/sister relationship, and with USA and BAE both speaking english, they got along famously.

I made an appt with HK USA's VP, also a former LE guy, nice enough guy - I took with me somebody who's been involved in the firearms industry, at the time over 25 years but real corporate literate which i wasn't, and brought with me an investor. THe 2 of us had letters of credit for a considerable amount - and offered them basically $2 mil in Purchase Orders, $1 mil PO up front, and a 2nd PO for an additional $1 mil if they delivered within 13 months. They turned the offer down, then Krause-Mauser purch'd HK worldwide from BAE and they had their own ideas.

We went onto looking into talking to SIG in switzerland about building the 550/551 series rifles here in the US, first for the law enforcement market, then as in 2004 the assault rifle ban was to expire, the commercial market. Ended up, Switzerland wanted the deal, but SIGARMS in New Hampshire had other ideas. But that's another story for another day
 
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larryccf said:
Don't know if HK USA is allowing them to import, it may just be they are not aware of their ability to have US Customs seize their shipments.
]
When i was importing, i kept changing overseas HK distributors - Australia was the last importer, i brought in about 1200+ pistols. HK Obendorf knew where their pistols were going but were happy to be shipping product as they were financially hurting, they viewed the US as their last primary market. This was about 2000, and remember, even UK had banned a lot of firearms and restricted ownership after that nutcase went into a school in Scotland (i think it was Dundee) and shot a number of kids. Problem was HK USA didn't want to sell, not just not to the civilian market, didn't want to sell or handle any small orders. One example, michigan state police chief armourer (they'd gone with the P7M8 for their troopers) must have called me 3 times asking if i could get them parts - i asked why don't you contact HK USA, his response was "I have, my rep hasn't returned my calls for the past 9 months, he knows why I'm calling."

About 2002 someone from Hk Oberndorf called me, he was basically a german version of a Price Waterhouse consultant, brought in to help them re-organize and increase sales. His first question was why wasn't i a dealer at HK USA? My response was, I had tried to when i approached them about buying all the P7K3s i'd been informed Obendorf had in inventory and offered to me thru their mideast rep for (tighten your seatbelts) $309 each. I figured if I brought in, between customs duty, shipping, customs broker costs and the big one FET costs (it was either 10% or 11% of the first transaction value for pistols), I figured i'd be into them $450 to $500 per. As HK's condition for a dealership was a minimum of a $2500 initial order, i figured an order for $100,000+ worth of pistols, that they'd be happy. Nope - i spoke to a Tye Weaver, who at the time was their Commercial Markets director. He was also former sergeant in a PA sheriff's office (iirc). Problem at HK USA was that most of their USA staff were not full time, most kept their jobs at whatever LE dept they were with. I spoke to Tye for maybe 20 mintes , explained to him the mideast rep had indicated Obendorf had 330 P7K3s they wanted to sell, and i'd take them all if we could agree on a "take them all price", and that i didn't want credit, i'd give them a 25% deposit on the order and the balance when they had them in courtry ready to deliver. His respons was., in a loud angry tone, "32 cal? - never sell !" . I simply responded, Tye that's what capitalism is all about, if they don't sell i've bought myself an expensive boat anchor. He said he'd get back to me. 3 months went by, i called back in and he wasn't in (probably back at his sheriff's dept), so i asked for Jim Schatz (i may not have spelled that correct), as he'd met me over at Abu Dhabi and seen my booth over there at IDEX '99, so i figured he might realize i was a serious player. Jim was military & LE sales director - when i explained to Jim what i had asked Tye Weaver for and hadn't heard back, i told him i didn't care who got the commission, i just wanted product. He told he didn't think Tye thought they'd sell. I responded Jim, what in the world - if you've got 300 green shirts on the shelf needing a customer, do you tell your customers to buy blue shirts?? And he said he'd get back to me,

He never did - I got worried someone else would get wind of them and buy them, so i contacted the mid east rep direct and thinking HK USA might know something i didn't, ie that they wouldn't sell, i asked him if i agreed to take them all, could he hold half for 5-6 months and give me half now? He agreed. They came in and sold out in 44 days from the time they cleared US customs. Only reason i know that, is when the last one shipped i looked at the date of the customs paperwork. Those sold for $895. The 2nd half i bumped the price up to $1095 and they took 4+ months to sell but they sold out.

Again that german "price waterhouse" consultant asked if i would try again - I responded "it's not a case of when HK is going to screw you over, but when". And they'd already screwed me one time with a local sheriff's office. They had called in wanting 12 MP5s - a buddy of mine was an authorized LE dealer, so i ordered thru him. They do not give a dealer a 6-8% margin on LE sales (my buddy had shown me his cost sheet. And they publish a law enforcement retail price sheet, so LE knows what they should be paying. i accepted the order from the sheriff's office only because i had made a previous sale to them that had been profitable, they had been good enough to remember me for this order, and even though there wasn't any profit worth the effort, i'd still service it so they'd remember me on the next order.

Well HK will not ship full auto direct to a dealer, only direct to the LE dept, which is fine by me, it saves me paperwork. They'd told my buddy, the authorized dealer 3-4 months for deliver. I told the sheriff's office 5-6 months, just to give myself a margin. At the 6 month mark the sheriff's office called "where are our rifles?" i called my bud, he call HK and they said there'd been a problem with the forms at ATF and that it would be another 3-4 months. I told the sheriff's office another 5-6 months, and again they called me after another 6 months asking the same question, ie where were the rifles.

They finally got them at the 15 month mark. I never heard from that sheriff's office again. Put yourself in my shoes and in their shoes, they had to assume the problem was with me - who'd think a mfgr would have product and didn't want to ship it. So basically HK put egg on my face that i couldn't wipe off and lost a customer.

I could relay a dozen stories like the above - I had told germany (as they'd asked) what the issue was, and i told them, 70 to 80% of the company is either current or former law enforcement - not the best background for sales, keep in mind, they had started their first employment with a "company" ie a LE dept, that couldn't go bankrupt. Making it worse, they weren't on commission. When they get their position at HK USA, thru the good old boy's network, 40% of their energy is devoted establishing and defending their position on the authority totem pole, then another 25-30% on not making mistakes to keep from suffer career damage - how do you avoid making mistakes? BY TAKIING AS LITTLE ACTION AS YOU CAN!

Obendorf had me write a report on all the incidents (with full contact info) on all the problems HK USA had had, ie how they'd offended the US Marines, and the Secret Service and other incidents. When i'd heard the SS had ordered 450 of the FN P90 (the little squirt subgun) i called one of the armorers at the SS that i knew and asked him if it was true - his response was yep. I asked him "but you've got the MP5k in inventory, that has to fit the bill"?? His answer, "we do and it does, but we have issue with the company". Keep in mind, HK USA, at the time in Sterling, was approx 35 miles from the SS headquarters. There should have been a HK rep over there once a month giving out pens, key FOBs, whatever and seeing what they needed.

Remember, law enforcement is as fad driven as the commercial market. When the SS had seen the British SAS rappelling down ropes onto the deck of the Achille Lauro carrying MP5s and then later onto the roof of the Iranian embassy in London when the terrorists took it hostage, they gave the MP5 a second look. When they adopted the MP5s, well the FBI then took a look at the MP5. Now the SS is carrying FNP90s - think what other agencies around the world are going to do when they see the SS carrying P90s.

FWIW
Click to expand...
What a story. Holy cow.
 
larryccf said:
We went onto looking into talking to SIG in switzerland about building the 550/551 series rifles here in the US, first for the law enforcement market, then as in 2004 the assault rifle ban was to expire, the commercial market. Ended up, Switzerland wanted the deal, but SIGARMS in New Hampshire had other ideas. But that's another story for another day
Click to expand...


Today is a new day! ;)
 
Thanks for taking the time to share this. Very interesting!
 
A detail i forgot to include, after they turned my offer down, about 8-10 months later i heard they had surrendered the deed (ie a deed in lieu of foreclosure is what i was told it was called) to their Sterling VA facility to the State of Va, in negotiations over unpaid sales and employee taxes. I never took the time to research the Sterling, VA deed room online, it'd probably be a whole lot easier today but a few months after hearing that, HK USA moved to the basement of Gun South Inc's facility in Alabama, so that gave it some credibility to me.

It seems to be standard in this industry, that manufacturers have the product and in a normal world you'd think they'd want to sell, but the reality is you have to figure out how to get that product out their hand. Had a similiar with SIGARMS in NH with the SSG3000 rifles, ended up going to switzerland and buying them straight from SIG Sauer. It was same sort of "dis-connect" between SIG Sauer and SIGARMS - i still remember, the VP of operations at Sig Sauer asked me why didn't i buy them from SIGARMS , when i told i tried but they didn't want to bring them in, he got mad and said "but we have too many here in the warehouse!"

And had the same issue with the Beta C-Mag company.
 
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