More ATF over reach

[MSOGDAWG]

PLEASE CONTACT YOUR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS - This has to STOP

ATF Form 1 Update: Take Action Now! - American Suppressor Association

Contact Your Legislators.Take Action Now! WASHINGTON, D.C. – On February 28th, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) summarily denied 847 Form 1 applications to make a suppressor because they believed the applicants were using solvent trap kits. On March 3rd, ATF notified...

americansuppressorassociation.com

 

[MSOGDAWG]

Everytime we give a little ground it is a victory for the gun grabbers.

 

[AGG]

Purchase a legitimate suppressor, or don't attempt registration.

Tony

 

[MSOGDAWG]

I personally dont have a "Form 1 suppressor" or "solvent trap". I have been thinking seriously about getting a DIY kit for an SPR clone as the AE OPS INC is no longer available. This would have been completed via a Form 1, but I guess I can do without, what I have now just wont be 100% clone correct. My main gripe here is the ATF and their brown shirt behavior AGAIN. I am a LEO and I have had interactions with the ATF that would make most folks here slip their shit. I know I did when I got their response on a REAL issue, a REAL crook, not a citizen trying to do the right thing and being shoved around by them, because an accepted practice is suddenly reversed based on someones arbitrary opinion. More specifically when those arbitrary opinions arise out of a field office versus one of the divisions developed to work with industry partners to set industry standards.

 

[MSOGDAWG]

Another situation most of us are familiar with is what they have done with Tom Bostic. Another is what they are trying with Rare Breed and the FRT. Look a victim is still a victim whether they are shot with a pistol vs a rifle with a 16" bbl vs a rifle with a 10.5" bbl vs a pistol with a 10.5 inch bbl. As well, "assualt rifle" is utter stupidity. If you are shot with a 10/22 and you live you have been assualted. Be it aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. A deadly weapon can be a ball point pen as well. Because an assault occurs with a gun doesnt make it an assault weapon its a deadly weapon. And I aint hearing "well the assault part is for military style weapons soldiers use to assault an objective" BS!! I was an infantry man for 9 years An assault can occur with a friggin M9 a Kabar and a couple frags, only 1 of those things is NFA regulated, and understandably so. However truth is most things that the NFA regulates has not and will not deter crime. Its about unnecessary taxation, just like some smaller agencies with populations of a few hundred having "traffic enforcement" units. Really? Like the local Highway Patrol cant handle the traffic and you keep your Officers and Deputies focused on community policing and relations by serving and protecting the citizens in and on their property. ATF has bumfuggled more in its history than it has true positive results. It has been floating and flopping and continues to try to prove its relevance and its perceived need for existence. All while managed by a contentious and radical at times agency administration.

 

[MSOGDAWG]

Hopefully you guys are monitoring this. It is getting more notice. Please let your government leaders know this isnt right.

NRA-ILA | ATF Mass Denial of Suppressor Form 1 Applications

On February 28, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (“ATF”) denied approximately 850 Form 1 applications for prospective makers of suppressors. These denials were apparently made due to a change in ATF policy regarding certain devices that ATF claims are in reality suppressor...

www.nraila.org

 

[NorincoKid]

My one and only can is a form 1, was approved a couple years ago.

Was actually thinking about doing another in 9mm for my MP5k but with all this.....probably wiser to get a commercial one.

I've had a (previously disapproved) form 1 SBR in limbo for a month now as well, the longest I've waited for a F1 was 18 days, I'd be curious as to whether or not anything is "moving" in the system after this debacle.

The usual "F1 approval threads" have been quiet.

 

[MSOGDAWG]

I had an SBR stamp efile approved in 13 days last month. Maybe they were able to be faster with turn around do to this mass "disapproval"

 

[MSOGDAWG]

I just dont get why they continue to try to criminalize the folks that are doing the right thing. That to me is effort that is better put in to investigating real crimes. Like the guy who used an illegal internet sear in his Glock and shot 3 cops!! Not the guy filing paperwork to legally acquire an item that has no direct affect on criminal acts of violence.

 

[NorincoKid]

something occurred to me, and a few of you guys aren't going to like this but ATF may be right on this. If all someone is doing is taking a solvent trap and changing it's application to use as a suppressor, that is not manufacturing, and filing a form 1 would be making a false representation to the fed gov't.

That logic is kindof flawed though.

A solvent trap isn't typically (and shouldn't be) drilled for a projectile. Machining is required.

If having a tube, with any kind of internal threading is verboten, then every store that sells's maglite flashlights is illegally selling silencers.

Manufacturer code FMI shouldn't care if you're drilling out solvent trap cups, steel condiment ramekins from Applebees, radiator freeze plugs etc. The end result would be no different than making baffles from round stock on the lathe. You took something that wasn't a baffle, and made it into a baffle.

A number of years ago, an individual from Argentina, (where suppressors are not regulated), was offering B&T IMPUL IIA silencers thru the mail for something like $1250. In switzerland and i'm sure in argentina, the B&T cans were not engraved. An idiot in San Francisco (iirc) was caught receiving one thru the mail. I don't care how "honest" his intentions might have been, ie that he intended to register it on a Form 1 etc, he did not manufacture that can.

Apples and oranges.

One is actually a silencer. The other, resembles a silencer but isn't.

Registering a device does not constitute manufacturing it, period. As much as i hate to say it, i have to agree with ATF on screening solvent traps. What i question is how are you supposed to provide pictures of the device's parts when it would be illegal to possess those prior to receiving an approved Form 1. Maybe the blueprints

You are not taking a title-1 firearm and adding it to the registry.

You are not taking possession of a registered, pre-existing NFA item

You are paying $200 and asking for permission to make something. There have been car oil filters registered as silencers. Simple male/female thread adapters have been registered as NFA items. Nobody "made these" from scratch.

If you are applying to manufacture a short barreled rifle, should you have to be able to hammer forge a blank, chamber it, button cut rifling and install it? Can't use a store bought short barrel?

By your logic every AK built on a tapco flat and registered as an SBR (FMI) wasn't really manufactured.

Every 80% lower drilled and milled out, ditto.

Every HK flat bent and welded, since the person didn't actually stamp the sheet metal on dies himself.

It shouldn't matter, shouldn't matter one bit.

You took something that wasn't a gun, and made it into a gun....that would be manufacturing. Same thing with silencers. You can still buy solvent traps today, because they're not illegal. That would take an act of congress,

This is why the ATF lost the bumpstock ban... didn't hold up in court. The ATF doesn't make law. They just recently decided to interpret in a different way than they did years ago, maybe political pressure, not sure. But the only way this actually sticks is if Congress changes the laws.

Flashlights, car exhaust, radiator freeze plugs, or solvent traps (so long as they are not predrilled, etc) are completely legal.


The ONLY argument that I could see actually "sticking" would be the following;

A part of a silencer is a silencer.

That has been pretty well covered for awhile now. It would not surprise me at all if at some point they decide they want a seperate F1 for every single component of the F1 can.

IE,

$200 stamp for tube
$200 stamp for end caps
$200 stamp per baffle, etc

 

[Brad4065]

That logic is kindof flawed though.

A solvent trap isn't typically (and shouldn't be) drilled for a projectile. Machining is required.

If having a tube, with any kind of internal threading is verboten, then every store that sells's maglite flashlights is illegally selling silencers.

Manufacturer code FMI shouldn't care if you're drilling out solvent trap cups, steel condiment ramekins from Applebees, radiator freeze plugs etc. The end result would be no different than making baffles from round stock on the lathe. You took something that wasn't a baffle, and made it into a baffle.



Apples and oranges.

One is actually a silencer. The other, resembles a silencer but isn't.



You are not taking a title-1 firearm and adding it to the registry.

You are not taking possession of a registered, pre-existing NFA item

You are paying $200 and asking for permission to make something. There have been car oil filters registered as silencers. Simple male/female thread adapters have been registered as NFA items. Nobody "made these" from scratch.

If you are applying to manufacture a short barreled rifle, should you have to be able to hammer forge a blank, chamber it, button cut rifling and install it? Can't use a store bought short barrel?

By your logic every AK built on a tapco flat and registered as an SBR (FMI) wasn't really manufactured.

Every 80% lower drilled and milled out, ditto.

Every HK flat bent and welded, since the person didn't actually stamp the sheet metal on dies himself.

It shouldn't matter, shouldn't matter one bit.

You took something that wasn't a gun, and made it into a gun....that would be manufacturing. Same thing with silencers. You can still buy solvent traps today, because they're not illegal. That would take an act of congress,

This is why the ATF lost the bumpstock ban... didn't hold up in court. The ATF doesn't make law. They just recently decided to interpret in a different way than they did years ago, maybe political pressure, not sure. But the only way this actually sticks is if Congress changes the laws.

Flashlights, car exhaust, radiator freeze plugs, or solvent traps (so long as they are not predrilled, etc) are completely legal.


The ONLY argument that I could see actually "sticking" would be the following;

A part of a silencer is a silencer.

That has been pretty well covered for awhile now. It would not surprise me at all if at some point they decide they want a seperate F1 for every single component of the F1 can.

IE,

$200 stamp for tube
$200 stamp for end caps
$200 stamp per baffle, etc

Good argument.

However, one has to look at the "intent". Once that's established, the whole game changes. Think about it {and I'm not opening up this can of worms} "constructive intent". Now run with it.

 

[NorincoKid]

Good argument.

However, one has to look at the "intent". Once that's established, the whole game changes. Think about it {and I'm not opening up this can of worms} "constructive intent". Now run with it.

If I submit a F1 for a SBS , own a mossberg 500 AND a hacksaw.....Pretty sure from the moment I filed that form the intent to make a SBS is clear.

From the moment its submitted to the moment its approved/denied/finalized, I guess you are in "intent" zone. You have every legal intention of cutting that shotgun down, and the means to do it.

If I wanted to build a shed, went a bought a bunch of 2x4's and plywood, and went and got the permit to build the shed from the county, its pretty clear I intend to build a shed.

But its not illegal to have a pile of lumber next to your house.

Just like its not illegal to own a solvent trap, maglite flashlite, a 6" repair section of automotive exhaust pipe, etc.

Intent isn't always illegal. And very difficult to prove.

I'm still waiting for CONGRESS to come out and say that the legal definition of "firearm" or "silencer" has changed. Until it does, I'm not super worried about this.

Because otherwise, every flashlight is a silencer, every block of aluminum is an AR15 receiver, every autozone that sells 1.5" OD carbon steel pipe is actually selling STEN machine guns, etc.

 

[Brad4065]

If I submit a F1 for a SBS , own a mossberg 500 AND a hacksaw.....Pretty sure from the moment I filed that form the intent to make a SBS is clear.

From the moment its submitted to the moment its approved/denied/finalized, I guess you are in "intent" zone. You have every legal intention of cutting that shotgun down, and the means to do it.

If I wanted to build a shed, went a bought a bunch of 2x4's and plywood, and went and got the permit to build the shed from the county, its pretty clear I intend to build a shed.

But its not illegal to have a pile of lumber next to your house.

Just like its not illegal to own a solvent trap, maglite flashlite, a 6" repair section of automotive exhaust pipe, etc.

Intent isn't always illegal. And very difficult to prove.

I'm still waiting for CONGRESS to come out and say that the legal definition of "firearm" or "silencer" has changed. Until it does, I'm not super worried about this.

Because otherwise, every flashlight is a silencer, every block of aluminum is an AR15 receiver, every autozone that sells 1.5" OD carbon steel pipe is actually selling STEN machine guns, etc.

"Because otherwise, every flashlight is a silencer, every block of aluminum is an AR15 receiver, every autozone that sells 1.5" OD carbon steel pipe is actually selling STEN machine guns, etc."

Agreed.....it is nothing, until it's "something".

Take all of those ingredients alone and they mean absolutely dick. The moment you screw on that oil filter you have a proven "intent". Prove it otherwise. At the end of the day, you're guilty until proven innocent. I know that's not how the law reads.....but it is the reality, and if you've been anywhere within 1000 yds of law enforcement {which you may very well be} then you know what I'm saying.

Personally.....I've seen WAY TOO MANY people screwed by the above listed statement. Just like I won't cheat on taxes. No butt bunny here.

 

[NorincoKid]

Actually every solvent trap i saw had a bore passing straight thru the center as if designed for a firearm projectile

Maybe some do. Most ive seen are the tube/cups style. They are solid cups, and solid end caps. They require each individual "baffle" to be machined, and the end cap.

Quietbore, F1Builder etc all use cups. Solid cups with no holes in them.

You could argue that the "monocore" style wish.com Chinesium ones are silencers, seeing as how the monocore will perform as a silencer without modification.

The cups will not. Those solvent traps will simply explode if you screwed one on and fired the gun.

Actually, according to ATF, when i inquired there are no receivers certified by ATF as being 80% - that is an industry marketing term. Our CCF Raceframes, after casting but before machining operations were declared by ATF as "firearms components, or components intended for use in a firearm" - therefore importation would still require approved Form 6s, but easier to obtain than import permits for firearms, which would have had to have been serialized, etc prior to importation.

80% is indeed arbitrary.

It either is a gun, or isn't.

However, ATF regulations are completely different for imports (not sure why you are mentioning imports).

Legal destruction of a firearm is held to different standards stateside vs importation. This is why you will sometimes see single saw cut PD guns, while imported kits need multiple torch cuts removing (x) amount of material from critical areas to be approved.

We are able to manufacture things stateside that would be completely illegal to import (think double stack AK47's with bayonet lugs and threaded muzzles)

To get those in, they have to be neutered, parts removed, muzzles tack welded, etc and then once they are stateside converted to a more appealing package.

Look at the SP5L...

That goofy 16" barrel pistol.

Do you think HK thought "Thats what the market really wants, a 2 foot long $3,000 pistol"?

Or did they make it because pistols are easier to import, and don't require 922r compliance? Let the end used throw a stock on it, its magically a carbine and 922 is their problem, not HK's...

If HK produced those stateside, they'd be carbines....new HK94's....

Domestic production (or manufacure) is completely different rules than importation, and importation really doesn't apply at all for anything happening here.

 

[NorincoKid]

Take all of those ingredients alone and they mean absolutely dick. The moment you screw on that oil filter you have a proven "intent". Prove it otherwise.

The moment you screw that oil filter on, you've committed a felony. You are way past the point of intent.

Unless you have the blessings of the feds and the paperwork to prove it before doing it. (your stamp)

I'm still curious to see how this holds up in in court.

 

[MSOGDAWG]

Larry....the very behavior you speak of above is really more of what I have heartburn with. The solvent trap thing just happens to be the most recent hill they are charging. Their inconsistancies and "make it up as we go" is what bothers me. Its the we write you an opinion then deny we did so and double down and screw you the law abiding citizen. Thats wrong PERIOD!!

 

[MSOGDAWG]

I am more familiar with what you describe than I care to be . Believe me I have ZERO problem understanding why citizens are fed up with government and LE in general. Hell Im LE and IM FED UP. What happened to doing the right thing and being a protector of and provider for the citizenry? My opinion....funding & politically driven agendas....gotta create problems to justify existence which justifies funding & validates political agendas, even if it takes lying. Only issue that I have is there is plenty of crime and criminals they dont gotta go MAKE more. But....alas....they have, they do and probably will continue to.