Thoughts on a .308 AR Variant

Guyanaman1963

Guyanaman1963

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Good Morning All.
I have been thinking about a .308 AR Variant general purpose rifle that is reliable, durable, and affordable… can those 3 words go together???🤔
I looked at:
HK MR7.62 (G28 conversion will break the bank).
Scar 17s (Geissele Trigger will have to be added).
B&T APC .308 (Man do I hate the trigger).
LMT L129A1 (A member here put one together that is absolutely amazing).
Ruger SFAR (Just saw that last night on line and thought it looked pretty good).

While I would prefer piston driven, I have zero issues with direct impingement.
With the exception of the Ruger SFAR, the price tag is really up there, but as Mick Jagger said…. “You cant always get what you want”).

So… asking for a friend…. What Has been your experience and what would you recommend?

As an FYI: I have a Remington 700 bolt action with a 20” (Might be bigger) stainless steel bull barrel with a jeweled bolt and a 6 oz trigger, wearing a Leopold 24x? Power scope. I have gotten it out to 700 yards… which is not easy in Florida… hard to find ranges that will go out much farther than that.
I think I have my “sniper” alter ego satisfied, so pretty much a battle rifle need to fill.

Thanks,
M.
 
Forget the Knights Armament product. MK110/SR-25. We had one of our DDM's in Iraq repeatedly fail to qualify and he was "this close" to being sent home before it was accepted that it was the gun, not him after he easily qual'd on the M24. The ones we had exhibited shifting point of impact as they warmed up, and by warmed up I mean after as little as 5 rounds. Fuck that. It has been observed by others that the gun was sold to the G when it still had a few years of design development ahead of it to be a field ready product, and one guy who was a SOTIC Instructor such that he was hired as a Contractor at SOTIC the day after he retired said "basically KA had the G pay for all that through sales of the rifle before that point". And that's assuming that all the issues are solved or you don't get a dud. In addition the mag is proprietary unless you have some late 1950's Dutch Armalite waffle mags or DPMS/Panther, which company has it's own reputaton for mediocrity. Are there Knight's guns that are not problematic? I don't know. All I know is what I was on the range for that day, and our guys had a choice between the MK110 or the M24. There were guys who initially chose the former that switched to the latter. "If there is any doubt there is no doubt". Marcus was a good dude, I roomed with him at the Selection & Training Course for that contract, he had a wife and kid at home to provide for and he nearly lost his job because of that POS. Who knows what else could be lost, right? Fuck that. KA = over priced hype 90% of the time.

H&K. IMHO they fucked up doing the douche bag "proprietary magazine" move when PMAGS are universal here in USA. In Germany, to the Bw or Polizei, who cares. But you aren't them. And you don't want to pay stupid prices. You can buy 5 PMAGS for 1 H&K 20 rounder. Bend over Fan-Boi. LOL.

The SCAR breaks optics and NV. Even if you weren't paying your own bill for that........this is why a whole company of 75th guys were a test unit for the SCAR on a deployment. At the end of that they were turned back in and the 75th declined to switch over to that platform. We are talking 5.56 here but.......I would think 7.62 exacerbates rather than mitigates the issue. Feel free to take your chances.

B&T you already know you hate. Do you really want to start out from that point, hoping it will get better? Would you do that in a relationship? "Should" you?

That leaves the LMT and one other. I don't know of anyone who has anything bad to say about that gun. The trunnion is a brick but that's also why it is a DDM gun that can do what a bolt gun can, or at least better than most shooters will ever be able to differentiate between the two.

The Ruger I know nothing about other than the fact that it's roughly 1/3 the cost of the LMT. The list of features is a long one from what I can tell. Unless you are ready to pay for an LMT, I would go with that, you may find it does everything you need and then some.

Lastly, 7.62 is not a 1000m sniping cartridge. It's a 600m-700m sniping cartridge as you found out. The fact that hits can be obtained at 1000m doesn't change that, Hallowe'en is over but that thing has the trajectory of a rolling pumpkin at 1000m. That is why the massive move in recent years to 6.5 Creed for that distance. Ruger has the Precision Rifle in that cartridge.

If you just want a cool blaster in 7.62 consider the Tavor T7. I have one but have not played with it yet. Do some reading and check reviews. It takes PMAG's.

HTH.
 
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Lamont said:
Forget the Knights Armament product. MK110/SR-25. We had one of our DDM's in Iraq repeatedly fail to qualify and he was "this close" to being sent home before it was accepted that it was the gun, not him after he easily qual'd on the M24. The ones we had exhibited shifting point of impact as they warmed up, and by warmed up I mean after as little as 5 rounds. Fuck that. It has been observed by others that the gun was sold to the G when it still had a few years of design development ahead of it to be a field ready product, and one guy who was a SOTIC Instructor such that he was hired as a Contractor the day after he retired said "basically KA had the G pay for all that through sales of the rifle before that point". And that's assuming that all the issues are solved or you don't get a dud. In addition the mag is proprietary unless you have some late 1950's Dutch Armalite waffle mags or DPMS/Panther, which company has it's own reputaton for mediocrity. Are there Knight's guns that are not problematic? I don't know. All I know is what I was on the range for that day, and our guys had a choice between the MK110 or the M24. There were guys who initially chose the former that switched to the latter. "If there is any doubt there is no doubt". Marcus was a good dude, I roomed with him at the Selection & Training Course for that contract, he had a wife and kid at home to provide for and he nearly lost his job because of that POS. Who knows what else could be lost, right? Fuck that. KA = over priced hype 90% of the time.

H&K. IMHO they fucked up doing the douche bag "proprietary magazine" move when PMAGS are universal here in USA. In Germany, to the Bw or Polizei, who cares. But you aren't them. And you don't want to pay stupid prices. You can buy 5 PMAGS for 1 H&K 20 rounder. Bend over Fan-Boi. LOL.

The SCAR breaks optics and NV. Even if you weren't paying your own bill for that........this is why a whole company of 75th guys were a test unit for the SCAR on a deployment. At the end of that they were turned back in and the 75th declined to switch over to that platform. We are talking 5.56 here but.......I would think 7.62 exacerbates rather than mitigates the issue. Feel free to take your chances.

B&T you already know you hate. Do you really want to start out from that point, hoping it will get better? Would you do that in a relationship? "Should" you?

That leaves the LMT and one other. I don't know of anyone who has anything bad to say about that gun. The trunnion is a brick but that's also why it is a DDM gun that can do what a bolt gun can, or at least better than most shooters will ever be able to differentiate between the two.

The Ruger I know nothing about other than the fact that it's roughly 1/3 the cost of the LMT. The list of features is a long one from what I can tell. Unless you are ready to pay for an LMT, I would go with that, you may find it does everything you need and then some.

Lastly, 7.62 is not a 1000m sniping cartridge. It's a 600m-700m sniping cartridge as you found out. The fact that hits can be obtained at 1000m doesn't change that, Hallowe'en is over but that thing has the trajectory of a rolling pumpkin at 1000m. That is why the massive move in recent years to 6.5 Creed for that distance. Ruger has the Precision Rifle in that cartridge.

If you just want a cool blaster in 7.62 consider the Tavor T7. I have one but have not played with it yet. Do some reading and check reviews. It takes PMAG's.

HTH.
Click to expand...
Thank you… thats some really good insight and sound advise.
I never really considered the Tavor, but I will look into it.
Thanks again!!!
M.
 
I'm hoping you try the Ruger SFAR with 16" so we have a range report. I have not seen or handled one.
 
Great thread. I’ve been toying with the idea of a DMR type platform too. Based on my preliminary research, I’ve been leaning towards the SCAR17s NRCH. The downside for them is that they eat optics. To resolve the issue is to use a SCAR rated mount and an after market gas block to better fine tune the gas. The SCAR really stands out because of its lightweight build vs others in the same class. Still need to do more research.
 
Aeg15 said:
Great thread. I’ve been toying with the idea of a DMR type platform too. Based on my preliminary research, I’ve been leaning towards the SCAR17s NRCH. The downside for them is that they eat optics. To resolve the issue is to use a SCAR rated mount and an after market gas block to better fine tune the gas. The SCAR really stands out because of its lightweight build vs others in the same class. Still need to do more research.
Click to expand...
What, the mount has a shock absorber? And you have to replace the gas block......

5.56mm being a 500m cartridge.....even with Mk262 rounds....(wind) just put a scope on an AR15A2. But, it's not sexy.......Or you do a Mk12 Mod H upper build. This would allow you to have a .300 PDW (upper) with the Mk12 upper in your ruck.....but two different cartridges.....different guns for different purposes......

If you're going to start making moves on the original platform, get the most you can out of that.
 
Blackwing said:
Just get hold of Ghillibear. He has a .308 precision roller semi he has in the skunk-worx right now.
Click to expand...

No.

Can you name ANYONE outside of Germany who uses roller lock for serious work anymore? And even in Germany. "G28". "G36". There's a reason for that. "Reasons".

The only place the roller lock concept was ever a plus was the MG42/MG3 where it originated and the MP5 series. In 5.56, OK. But in full powered 7.62 it's a violent system, hard on both the weapon, it's components and the shooter unless it's a system with the weight/component thickness of the aforementioned belt fed, or the lack of impulse from using a 9mm. In those two systems it shines, and shines brightly. G3/HK91 SUCK to shoot unless buffered to a fair-thee-well, and if those rollers get too far out of spec, look out. It launches casings into a low earth orbit. It's worth remembering that the ORIGINAL G3, the CETME, fired a 7.62 round loaded to 80% of the power of 7.62 NATO. Think those engineers knew what they were doing? They invented the whole thing, maybe so. And if the Belgians hadn't been so dead set against giving the Post WW2 German government a license to produce the FAL in Germany we would not even be having this conversation because the G3 would never have existed. If it was second, even third best 70 years ago, what is it now. They even tested the Dutch produced Armalite AR-10 (coughG28cough) before they adopted the G3. Unfortunately it needed some further development, (KA, I'm looking at you...) which Artillerie Inrichtengen was doing the whole 3 years they produced the Sudanese and Portuguese contract guns, with a Transitional model between the two where they improved the gun as produced for the Sudanese. Barrel flutes were eliminated, locking lugs were thickened.....They looked at a flat top for optics, side cocking, forward assist, all of that. Just a couple years more and....

In conclusion, 7.62 roller locked in a rifle is a bad idea. It took the Germans 70 years to agree, but as my German wife will tell you, they can be stubborn.......
 
We made sniper versions of the M14. While they as well "didn't do too bad" in most people's eyes, it's largely because most people know little about the M21.

The PSG is accurate. Very accurate. But it required similar levels of work/modification from the G3 to make it what it was. And we are not talking about that, we are talking about a member putting money into a rifle that is semi-auto DMR/"sniper" when he really wants a battle rifle. Whatever the PSG is, it's also a boat anchor and among other things required a machine gun buffer upgrade from the G3 to be useable in that role.

"I think I have my “sniper” alter ego satisfied, so pretty much a battle rifle need to fill."

I think we can agree the PSG is not a battle rifle. It was a battle rifle that was selected for modifiction ONLY because it was a semi-auto, the reason being a requirement to engage multiple targets quickly at short-medium range with extreme accuracy with rapid follow up shots, and it was in fact a reaction driven by the failure of ONE incident, the scenario faced by German Police at the Munich Airport in 1972. Basically they made what they had (G3) into what they felt they needed to deal effectively with a similar situation if it ever arose again. Multiple Targets in a police situation against terrorists. Was it ever used by the Bw? Nope. Did a similar situation ever arise again? Also nope. The terrorists learned from that situation and never again offered that opportunity, all future engagements at airports involved confrontations interior to aircraft. GSG-9 initially used S&W J-frames, the downsides of that gun leading to the development of the P7.

"Polizei Scharfschuetzen Gewehr".

Cool gun, absolutely. But more for collecting than really using. And it's not the Battle Rifle that the OP is looking for.
 
Man!!!! Talk about some awesome information in here. This is more that I could have hoped for!
Keep it coming gents!!!!
M.
 
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