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VFG ok w/o SBR Stock?
- Thread starter ENDER
- Start date
From what I understand NO. Since the AOW overall length (excluding the brace) is under 26 in. If you put a VFG on then it requires registration.
Refer to the following article from 2019. Its how I’ve understood it. Someone else chime in to confirm.
www.omahaoutdoors.com
Refer to the following article from 2019. Its how I’ve understood it. Someone else chime in to confirm.
Please Don’t Put a Vertical Foregrip on a Pistol - Omaha Outdoors
Don’t put a vertical foregrip on a pistol. Right? This has always been my understanding of the National Firearms Act, at least as far back as I was aware that the law existed and began to read on the topic. It’s not something everyone agrees on, though – I walked into a gun store about ten years...
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The way I read the OPs post, it sounds like he had Form 1ed his weapon.
In that case, the way I understand things is yes you can use a VFG, regardless if you attach a stock or not.
However, I'm not an NFA lawyer.
There are work arounds without registration, like BCMs "89*" VFG (the whole not 90* thing).
YMMV.
In that case, the way I understand things is yes you can use a VFG, regardless if you attach a stock or not.
However, I'm not an NFA lawyer.
There are work arounds without registration, like BCMs "89*" VFG (the whole not 90* thing).
YMMV.
I guess I didn't get the gist of your question. I don't know. I know you could with a registered-sear in it. I've never had the urge to run my K, without a stock. Hmmm
I think it would be a pistol in another NFA category. Good question.
I think it would be a pistol in another NFA category. Good question.
Care to elaborate on how you would better characterize that situation? Are you denying that sans an SBR (or MG) classification - you would indeed need an AOW to affix a VFG on a pistol?
That sounds good in theory, but usually ends in tears. ATF thrives on gray areas. The ATF exists to enforce random, arbitrary rules that they make up as they go. If you ask five different ATF agents a question, you will get five different answers, and five of them will be wrong. Most won't even try to answer, because they know they don't know, because it's not possible to know. Even if you do accidently get a 'correct' answer, they'll probably change their interpretation of the law soon, and render you a felon anyway. ATF rules are similar to the Youtube terms of service. They will not tell you what they are, but they will tell you when you have broken them. Then, they'll shoot your dog, take all of your stuff, and put you in jail. Not sure if Youtube does that last part.
For the most recent high profile example of this, read about the Tommybuilt T36. They told him they decided it is a machine gun, even though they have allowed them to be sold for several years. They won't say how they tested it, they won't give him anything in writing, and they won't tell him what he needs to do to fix it. They are aware that there are other guns still for sale in the US that are exactly the same as the T36, but they only declared the T36 a machine gun, and not the other. There are many other examples just like this one, if you care to look.
As another example of how the ATF doesn't like gray areas. Let's talk about AOWs.
You can put a vertical grip on an AOW, right? ...but when you read the AOW law (26 U.S.C. § 5845(E)), the last sentence says 'Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.'
The important bit being 'such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore'. Hmmmmm. Your SP5K is a pistol, right? It has a rifled bore, right? The law says it can't be an AOW. IT CAN'T BE AN AOW....yet it would seem, it can. Can't it?
26 U.S.C. § 5845(E) uses the word 'pistol', but there are different definitions for 'pistol' and 'handgun'. Turns out, the SP5 isn't a pistol, it's a handgun.
US Code Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 44 Section 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.
Code of Federal Regulations Title 27 Chapter II Subchapter B Part 478 Subpart B Section 478.11
When used in this part and in forms prescribed under this part, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly incompatible with the intent thereof, terms shall have the meanings ascribed in this section. Words in the plural form shall include the singular, and vice versa, and words importing the masculine gender shall include the feminine. The terms “includes” and “including” do not exclude other things not enumerated which are in the same general class or are otherwise within the scope thereof.
Handgun.
(a) Any firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(b) Any combination of parts from which a firearm described in paragraph (a) can be assembled.
Pistol.
A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
So, you want your 'handgun' to be an AOW. Let's forget the pistol/handgun definition discrepancy for a moment. Title 27 Chapter II Subchapter B Part 478 Subpart B Section 478.11 says a handgun is 'any firearm [snip] designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand' ...but the SP5 has a 'handguard'. How can the SP5 be sold as a 'Handgun' when it clearly does not meet the definition? Since handguards are obviously allowed on handguns, since both the SP5 and SP5K come from the factory with handguards, where does it specify that a vertical handguard is bad, but a horizontal handguard is OK? Where does it say if you pronate your wrist when you two-hand your handgun, you are good to go? Here is a hint: It doesn't.
...But 26 U.S.C. § 5845(E) says 'pistol', and the SP5 is a 'handgun', so it doesn't apply anyway. Right?
Yeah, ATF hates gray areas.
Here is how to NFA within the current legal framework:
-Read all of the existing laws, rulings and letters issued by the ATF that you can find. Note that many of the letters and opinions will directly contradict each other.
-Read gun forums, talk to other NFA owners and listen to their shared experiences
-Attempt, in your mind, to establish ATF enforcement trends and objectives
-Decide what your threshold for risk is
-Make a decision, and proceed.
@eodinert Thank you for the thoughtful post.
I was just looking for a consensus, seems like a sensible question as I'm not sure I will always have a stock on the MP5k.
There will never be a consensus on the internet, or within the ATF. However, by my interpretation of current enforcement trends and opinions from the ATF (even though it may not be supported directly in the CFR), is that an SBR missing it's stock, but with a vertical foregrip, is OK. Even though there are ATF opinions directly in contradiction to that.
Here is the contradiction:
ATF says a title II firearm (basically anything NFA excluding machineguns, in this example) is only under the purview of NFA as long as it is in an NFA configuration (For example, your SBR is only an SBR while it has the stock on it. Take the stock off, and it is a title I pistol again, and you can cross state lines, sell it without a transfer tax, whatever, no longer an NFA item.
..but when you have an SBR, with a vertical foregrip, and you take the stock off.... it's no longer an SBR. The SBR rules don't say anything about vertical (or horizontal) foregrips. It was never an AOW, now it's not an SBR... according to the ATF (and the CFR), it's a pistol again.
Don't worry though, because ATF has suggested or implied that it's OK... even though you can't back it up with the CFR. They have even written a letter to someone else saying it's OK, but it doesn't apply to you, because they didn't write it to you...but they say it's OK.
Government agencies are tasked with enforcing the law that congress passes, and the laws are a mess. Their enforcement of the law is probably worse than the law itself.
..but to answer your question, I take the stock off my MP5K SBR and use it with just the foregrip whenever I feel like it. You will probably find that people that are not new to NFA will happily run SBRs without stocks, but find your own happy place.
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